Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Need a rant about one of your teams? Seen a goal that needs sharing? Was the referee a wanker? Talk all things sports here.
User avatar

Topic author
Caesar
Posts: 5844
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 10:47

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Caesar » 07 Feb 2021, 04:04

There are a lot of times that I'm sitting up in the wee hours of the morning and I hear something in the sports world that really has me thinking if there's an argument to be made for it. So, I decided to start a thread to bring you all into these debates.

Up first: Can you make an argument for Tom Brady being the best quarterback of all-time without using the words wins, Super Bowls, rings or any synonym for winning or bringing up team accolades? If you can't, is he the best quarterback of all-time?

Point to think about: No one has ever called Bill Russell the GOAT basketball player.

Image
User avatar

djp73
Posts: 5347
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 13:42

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by djp73 » 07 Feb 2021, 07:09

With the winning aspect eliminated you essentially make it "most talented" and I don't think so.
User avatar

KimJongBaze
Posts: 1329
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 18:31

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by KimJongBaze » 07 Feb 2021, 10:29

Best argument from me is that he is the most poised under pressure in the biggest moments. Like the idea of facing Brady in a big game brings me fear every time. There's not a point in which I think the game was safe. Don't know how close this can be associated with "winning" so take it for what it's worth.
User avatar

Topic author
Caesar
Posts: 5844
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 10:47

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Caesar » 07 Feb 2021, 10:54

djp73 wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 07:09
With the winning aspect eliminated you essentially make it "most talented" and I don't think so.
Greatest of all time is usually synonymous with most talented, not most successful so if taking the winning out means he ain't the GOAT because he ain't the most talented... :shrug: Thus why LeBron James and Michael Jordan are talked of as the GOATs and not Bill Russell and Robert Horry. Image
Baze wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 10:29
Best argument from me is that he is the most poised under pressure in the biggest moments. Like the idea of facing Brady in a big game brings me fear every time. There's not a point in which I think the game was safe. Don't know how close this can be associated with "winning" so take it for what it's worth.
That's pretty close to a synonym for winning. BUT for the sake of argument, wouldn't that put Terry Bradshaw and Joe Montana higher on the GOAT list than him because they won 4 Super Bowls and never lost one? Also, if we want to say that's mental fortitude, he's not far and away the best there either if you go by fourth quarter comeback stats. He's 4 behind Peyton Manning and only a few ahead of the likes of Brees et al.
User avatar

Xixak
Posts: 2468
Joined: 08 Dec 2018, 05:46

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Xixak » 07 Feb 2021, 11:38

Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
User avatar

Topic author
Caesar
Posts: 5844
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 10:47

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Caesar » 07 Feb 2021, 12:32

Xixak wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 11:38
Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
Are his stats because he is leaps and bounds better than everyone else or because he's played at an elite level for 20 years? Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan are all in the top 10 of passing yards and touchdowns in a career solely on them just being in the NFL as starting QBs for a long time.

The argument here is that outside of having the most rings, nothing on Tom Brady's resume in terms of talent or stats sets him apart from any other Hall of Fame level QB.
User avatar

KimJongBaze
Posts: 1329
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 18:31

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by KimJongBaze » 07 Feb 2021, 12:50

Caesar wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 12:32
Xixak wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 11:38
Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
Are his stats because he is leaps and bounds better than everyone else or because he's played at an elite level for 20 years? Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan are all in the top 10 of passing yards and touchdowns in a career solely on them just being in the NFL as starting QBs for a long time.

The argument here is that outside of having the most rings, nothing on Tom Brady's resume in terms of talent or stats sets him apart from any other Hall of Fame level QB.
In your opinion, who is the greatest of all time QB? Or does one exist?
User avatar

Captain Canada
Posts: 2158
Joined: 01 Dec 2018, 00:15

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Captain Canada » 07 Feb 2021, 13:44

Caesar wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 12:32
Xixak wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 11:38
Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
Are his stats because he is leaps and bounds better than everyone else or because he's played at an elite level for 20 years? Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan are all in the top 10 of passing yards and touchdowns in a career solely on them just being in the NFL as starting QBs for a long time.

The argument here is that outside of having the most rings, nothing on Tom Brady's resume in terms of talent or stats sets him apart from any other Hall of Fame level QB.
I think the only argument for outside of having the most rings, is that it is his prolonged domination of the league for 20 years+ that would make him the GOAT. It's hard to have a conversation about the greatest without talking about what you actually did during your career. I think djp said it best that the GOAT conversation is the perfect combination of what you did and how talented and gifted you were.

Brady is arguably a top 5 most talented quarterback of all-time, at the very least top ten and he is far and away had the greatest career.

But to answer your question, no, if you take out what he did during his career than there cannot be a good argument made for Brady being the greatest of all time.
User avatar

Topic author
Caesar
Posts: 5844
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 10:47

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Caesar » 07 Feb 2021, 14:21

Baze wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 12:50
Caesar wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 12:32
Xixak wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 11:38
Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
Are his stats because he is leaps and bounds better than everyone else or because he's played at an elite level for 20 years? Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan are all in the top 10 of passing yards and touchdowns in a career solely on them just being in the NFL as starting QBs for a long time.

The argument here is that outside of having the most rings, nothing on Tom Brady's resume in terms of talent or stats sets him apart from any other Hall of Fame level QB.
In your opinion, who is the greatest of all time QB? Or does one exist?
I'm just playing devil's advocate bro. I have no opinion on it. :bazechief:
User avatar

Topic author
Caesar
Posts: 5844
Joined: 27 Nov 2018, 10:47

Caesar's Arguably Blasphemous Sports Debate Emporium

Post by Caesar » 07 Feb 2021, 14:29

Captain Canada wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 13:44
Caesar wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 12:32
Xixak wrote:
07 Feb 2021, 11:38
Is Brady just winning though?

He's the all time leader in passing yards across regular/postseason, regular season TDs and postseason TDs... #3 all-time in QBR.
Are his stats because he is leaps and bounds better than everyone else or because he's played at an elite level for 20 years? Philip Rivers, Eli Manning and Matt Ryan are all in the top 10 of passing yards and touchdowns in a career solely on them just being in the NFL as starting QBs for a long time.

The argument here is that outside of having the most rings, nothing on Tom Brady's resume in terms of talent or stats sets him apart from any other Hall of Fame level QB.
I think the only argument for outside of having the most rings, is that it is his prolonged domination of the league for 20 years+ that would make him the GOAT. It's hard to have a conversation about the greatest without talking about what you actually did during your career. I think djp said it best that the GOAT conversation is the perfect combination of what you did and how talented and gifted you were.

Brady is arguably a top 5 most talented quarterback of all-time, at the very least top ten and he is far and away had the greatest career.

But to answer your question, no, if you take out what he did during his career than there cannot be a good argument made for Brady being the greatest of all time.
Has he had far and away the greatest career? Is having 2 (potentially 3) extra Super Bowls that much better than the likes of Joe Montana? There are numerous QBs right now who've been in the league for 15-20 years. It's a team game at the end of the day. Does Dan Marino get a knock because he couldn't drag the other 52 guys on the team kicking and screaming to a championship? Brady was the QB (a Hall of Fame caliber one) on the most dominant team in the last two decades, if not in NFL history. Those rings he won don't contribute to him being the GOAT any more than Montana's 4 or Bradshaw's 4 or Aikman's 3 because the GOAT discussion is about talent not team accolades. Thus why if you can't make the argument without mentioning the rings, then you arguably can't make the argument at all.

To bring the basketball analogy back into it, if it's the combination of talent and what you accomplished, why is there a debate between LeBron and MJ? MJ has more rings (right now). That would be the end of the discussion. And that's in a sport where one player is more impactful.
Post Reply